U-20's log: Additions and cover-up

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  • 게시일 2024. 01. 06.
  • Today, we explore the potential for U-20'S log to have been a part of a cover-up. Germany was one of 3 guilty nations involved in the Lusitania's loss, but it held one of the most valuable primary sources, the U-boat log. In this video, we look at what alterations may have been made. Enjoy the video.
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댓글 • 52

  • @centralcrossing4732
    @centralcrossing4732  3 개월 전 +5

    Notes:
    This video is not intended to blame any one person or nation for the disaster. The United States, Britain, and Germany each had guilt and each set out to cover their tracks while blaming one another.
    This video is intended to look at one of the more drastic actions taken by the Germans, making the U-boat log 'friendly.' It's possible that the log wasn't altered, but I, along with others, think it was.

  • @aj-2savage896
    @aj-2savage896 3 개월 전 +9

    Just the fact that Lucy was listed under the "Auxiliary Cruiser" heading of the recognition book should not be dismissed. She was, in fact, built as such.

    • @centralcrossing4732
      @centralcrossing4732  3 개월 전 +6

      In reality, it can be dismissed. Lusitania was not built as an auxiliary cruiser, it was built to be quickly converted into one. There is a difference.
      The ship was operating as an ocean liner at the time it was sunk, not an auxiliary cruiser. It's like how HMHS Britannic was a hospital ship and not an ocean liner. The title comes down to operation and load out.

    • @mbryson2899
      @mbryson2899 3 개월 전 +3

      ​​@@centralcrossing4732Fitted out for the role or not, she was built to facilitate the conversion.
      If she was listed in the German recognition books as an auxiliary cruiser it is likely that German personnel would consider her to be such.
      edit: Great video, BTW!

    • @centralcrossing4732
      @centralcrossing4732  3 개월 전 +1

      @@mbryson2899 It still doesn't matter. Germany had ocean liners constructed under the exact same terms and they played the same game. They knew the difference between built to quickly convert vs actually being one.
      I think it's a bit difficult to validate how each U-boat commander would approach it. There are cases where Germany claimed the ship was incorporated just to have its appearance available to all commanders. The issue with defending Germany's decision to place Lusitania in the auxiliary cruisers is that they could do that to all ocean liners and create a strange situation where everything was game. Uniquely, Germany for the most part didn't want to take that approach as unrestricted warfare wasn't very appealing to the government. It came down to each commander to make their own decision, which was how men like Tirpitz wanted it, but the Kaiser didn't. If a commander did decide to take the recognition book at face value, that really falls back on the navy for misidentifying the target.
      What makes this even more difficult is Schwieger didn't give a reason as to why he did it. Some excellent ideas have been tossed forward, but it's a bit difficult to put one over the rest just because he can't confirm his thoughts. It's a strange topic for sure.
      Thank you, I appreciate your regular communication on the channel.

    • @mbryson2899
      @mbryson2899 3 개월 전

      @@centralcrossing4732 Believe me, I agree. I think there may have been more than a bit of "plausible deniability" at play, though.
      Given the published notices I certainly would not have embarked upon her. To me it was a three-sided dare.

    • @alecblunden8615
      @alecblunden8615 3 개월 전

      It was common practise for the British Governments, pre World War 1, to subsidize the building of large Liners on the agreement that they could be requisitioned for service as Auxiliary Merchant Cruisers. Lusitania was included, but it had not been requisitioned. What it could be used for is utterly irrelevant - the significant issue is what it was used for. The German commander did not follow the recognised International Law "Cruiser Rules". He was clearly in breach of the Laws of War and Germany shares his guilt.

  • @leesander1802
    @leesander1802 3 개월 전 +4

    Great video. In any service falsifying a log is a serious charge/offense/accusation. There have been officer's who have been dismissed or demoted for a guilty judgment.

  • @christophersnyder1532
    @christophersnyder1532 3 개월 전 +2

    Pretty nice, I am doing well, still determining on how to visualize Musashi, for my animation, and reading up on Leyte, for the comic on Musashi, and Leyte Gulf.
    Take care, and all the best.

  • @chrisreidland
    @chrisreidland 3 개월 전 +2

    Thanks for the cool Documentary.

  • @Kwolfx
    @Kwolfx 3 개월 전

    Kudos Crosser! This was a really well researched and well made video. I was aware of this controversy, but you brought up details I hadn't heard before.
    However, there is one area or specific rumor that I strongly disagree with. The idea that U-boat command told or ordered Kapitänleutnant Schwieger to "wait for the Lusitania." This is an order they simply would not have given and I will state why below. What is much more likely is that U-boat command told Schwieger that he should look for the Lusitania, that the ocean liner would probably pass through the Irish Sea on its way to Liverpool and he might have an opportunity to attack it.
    There are three reasons why Kapitänleutnant Schwieger's superior officers would not have ordered him on a specific mission to find a place to "wait for the Lusitania." The first reason is they would have had no way of knowing if the Lusitania might be ordered to divert its course to another port or sail to the North of Ireland. The Royal Navy could have told Cunard to send a message to the Lusitania to divert it from its normal passage. The second reason is the Irish Sea is 70 miles wide. In theory, the Lusitania could have sailed through the Irish Sea without the U-20 ever spotting it. Kapitänleutnant Schwieger had no way of knowing that Captain Turner would stay close to the Irish coast and no way of knowing the Lusitania's captain would take a compass bearing on Old Kinsale Head. The third and perhaps the most compelling reason is that all U-boat commanders had been given an express order not to sit and wait for any major target to appear.
    In March of 1915, during the Lusitania's next to last voyage, one U-boat commander had laid in wait in the St. George channel on the direct approach to Liverpool, specifically in hopes of attacking the Lusitania. In doing so he passed up the opportunity to attack two or three other smaller vessels. He hadn't wanted to alert the Royal Navy; and through them Cunard, to his presence. Due to fuel issues he gave up and left about 18 hours before the Lusitania actually arrived in that area. (I don't remember which book I read this incident in, but I do remember that this U-boat commander had written in his vessel's War Diary the reason for his decisions.) Due to this failure U-boat command gave a specific order to all of its commanders to not do this again. When on patrol they were not to wait, and in doing so, pass up an opportunity to attack a legitimate target in hopes of sinking a bigger or better target.
    Kapitänleutnant Schwieger followed this order to the letter in the patrol that sank the Lusitania. From the attacks he made on May 6th we can see that he wasn't waiting in a specific location, but was patrolling a specific area. So, I agree that Schwieger must have recognized the Lusitania from the moment he saw it had four funnels; and it is likely he was tipped off that this opportunity might occur, but neither he nor his superior officers would have known that it would occur or given him a specific order to make it happen.
    Crosser, you should do a video on the penultimate voyage; the next to last voyage, of the Lusitania. Specifically, you should cover the Royal Navy's failed attempt to provide the Lusitania with a destroyer escort. It's a comedy of errors which would make a great video and is perhaps the major reason why the Royal Navy didn't attempt to escort the Lusitania on what turned out to be its final voyage.

  • @The7humpwump
    @The7humpwump 3 개월 전

    Would have been nice to see a comparison log entry in full. Look at the writing styles and compare

    • @centralcrossing4732
      @centralcrossing4732  3 개월 전

      Those are present. For instance, the days with Schwieger's signatures are done properly. You can compare 7 May to any other day in that log.

  • @martryan2060
    @martryan2060 3 개월 전 +3

    My greatgrandparents were on the ship the survived hence I am here

  • @greycatturtle7132
    @greycatturtle7132 3 개월 전

    What a curious case

  • @WildBillCox13
    @WildBillCox13 3 개월 전

    Shared.

  • @guaporeturns9472
    @guaporeturns9472 3 개월 전 +5

    The Lusitania’s cargo manifest shows it was carrying small arms ammunition , correct?

    • @Knight6831
      @Knight6831 3 개월 전 +5

      It was
      When RMS Lustitania was sunk, she was carrying 4.2 million rounds of 7.7mm Remington .303 rifle/machine-gun cartridges, 1,250 cases of empty 76mm 3-inch fragmentation shell casings and eighteen cases of percussion fuses
      However under American shipping rules at the time, this stuff was completely legal

    • @centralcrossing4732
      @centralcrossing4732  3 개월 전 +4

      Yes, it had 4,200 cases of 303 rifle rounds, 1,250 cases of fuses, and 18 empty shell casings.

    • @Knight6831
      @Knight6831 3 개월 전 +3

      And as I said under the rules of American shipping at the time, the Lusitannia was legally allowed to carry the stuff

    • @guaporeturns9472
      @guaporeturns9472 3 개월 전

      @@Knight6831 Pretty sure the German government issued a clear warning to the US that any ships carrying war materials would be considered hostile and engaged as such.

    • @guaporeturns9472
      @guaporeturns9472 3 개월 전 +3

      @@Knight6831 "American shipping rules”? I mean they can play by their own rules if they want , just like the Germans did.

  • @George_M_
    @George_M_ 3 개월 전 +2

    Sent out to be sunk as an outrage target by Churchill. The Germans finally took the bait. German command faking the log for political reasons is quite petty. No wonder the captain didn't put him name on it.

  • @zhoufang996
    @zhoufang996 3 개월 전 +1

    Let me just put in my opinion, since I think there's a lot of historical myths thrown around:
    1. Ultimately Lusitania sinking's legitimacy should not be evaluated as an individual event, but an inevitable outcome of a wider policy. Issues like the munitions aboard etc are irrelevant because they are not militarily significant, and are anyway only announced after the ship sunk. Further, other more "innocent" ships were also sunk. The German policy in practice was just pretty indiscriminate.
    2. Actual legalities of war were a fluid thing. Does sinking the Lusitania become "legitimate" just because the Germans said they were gonna do it? Does that legitimacy survive them subsequently saying "oopsy, we promise never to do it again"? If you look at the original declaration of unrestricted submarine warfare, it's all meally mouthed stuff like "[it will not] always be possible to avert the danger thereby threatened to the crew and passengers". Would a reasonable person look at that and say "oh, they'll torpedo a cruise liner without warning"?
    3. Conspiracy theories about Churchill trying to get the ship sunk are very silly.
    4. Ultimately I think the question is really quite murky. The intent of blockades is to cause a strategic result through economic strangulation. I think really the right way to evaluate all this is from a proportionality POV. Does the doctrine obtain sufficient strategic outcomes to justify the civilian cost? Is there a reasonable belief that it could?
    In that context, a lot of stuff like the munitions and Qboats and etc don't actually matter. Remember that the British were blockading the Germans at the same time. Thus the consensus around everyone is that if it would win the Great War, it is acceptable to inflict significant depredations upon the civilian population. If Lusitania had been carrying zero bullets and just food and clothes, well, it could still be sunk if it would help starve out Britain and win the war. If the Germans were extra nice and let the passengers evacuate, the lives saved would be a drop in the bucket of the millions you are trying to starve into submission.
    The issue that makes the Lusitania sinking illegitimate to me, IMO, is that by that measure, the sinkings were both atrocious but also plainly *ineffective*. The British had 21 mil tonnes of shipping to start with, the Germans under unrestricted submarine warfare sunk under 1 million in 6 months, easily exceeded by new construction. In short, it was a failed strategy, and if the Germans had been more careful to not sink cruise liners it wouldn't have failed any more than it did. Thus, it fails the proportionality test - which makes sense because the Germans ditched it. The second bout of submarine warfare in 1917 is much more justifiable.

  • @ghosterdude
    @ghosterdude 3 개월 전 +3

    classic "join the war" false flag, full of holes and poorly scripted.

    • @centralcrossing4732
      @centralcrossing4732  3 개월 전 +1

      There is nothing classic about this video.
      At what point do I suggest anyone should 'join the war' that ended more than a century ago? There is no value in even presenting that as a topic.
      Please let me know about the holes you see. I'd be pleased to receive the feedback.
      Edit: all of my videos are poorly scripted as I don't write scripts.

    • @ghosterdude
      @ghosterdude 3 개월 전 +1

      @@centralcrossing4732 i must apologize. i was not clear. i'm not criticizing your video. it's well done and very informative.
      i was talking about the event itself. history is full of them. it boggles the mind how many such dubious events have resulted wars getting started or nations joining wars. the more you look into them, the more suspect they are.
      can you tell of other such events with official stories making no sense upon closer inspection but who are extremely convenient for certain parties?

    • @centralcrossing4732
      @centralcrossing4732  3 개월 전 +2

      @@ghosterdude Ahh, I must apologize as well. The biggest issue with communicating through text is that it's so difficult to tell the tone, implications, and meanings at times. I'm sorry.
      Yes, I actually plan on continuing this topic. I want to give the approach of Germany, the United States, and Britain in separate videos as each nation was very cautious in approaching this topic.
      I'd also like to visit others as there were a handful of ships sunk by submarines in ww1 that were flooded with controversy as the submarine was such a difficult weapon to regulate.
      Another primary source I'll be scrutinizing in the future is the wireless messages between the lusitania and Admiralty as the Admiralty added messages and altered others after the sinking to blame Captain Turner.

    • @MrGoldenV
      @MrGoldenV 3 개월 전

      I agree 100%

    • @mbryson2899
      @mbryson2899 3 개월 전 +1

      ​@@ghosterdudeThe Tonkin Gulf Incident immediately springs to mind.